Culture Isn't Fluffy: How Employer Brand Shapes Organizational Capability
In this thought-provoking episode of the People MBA, James and Bryan tackle the often misunderstood relationship between employer brand and company culture. Moving beyond "fluffy bunny" platitudes that plague most discussions about culture, they explore how employer brand can serve as a strategic blueprint for creating the organizational capabilities businesses need to succeed.
The hosts introduce a powerful framework: just as consumer brand drives customer "willingness to pay," employer brand drives employee "willingness to serve." This perspective elevates employer brand from a mere recruitment tool to a C-suite strategic priority. They argue that rather than starting with what talent wants, effective employer brand strategy begins with what the business needs, then crafts a compelling narrative to attract people who will thrive in that environment.
With only 61% of global brands having any semblance of an employer brand strategy (and just 37% of small businesses), there's massive untapped potential for organizations willing to approach culture with strategic intent. This episode provides practical insights for connecting employer brand to measurable business outcomes and reshaping how we think about culture as a driver of organizational capability.
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Transcript
Is there a, a term that is less poorly used than the word culture?
Speaker:Maybe strategy, maybe.
Speaker:Uh, but culture's gotta be up there.
Speaker:It's gotta be up there.
Speaker:Like if you asked a lot of employer brand and talent acquisition and
Speaker:frankly business leadership, people, what culture is, you're gonna get
Speaker:a lot of soft language, a lot of vague ideas, a lot of fluffy bunny,
Speaker:a lot of it feels good kind of stuff.
Speaker:And what are we supposed to do with that?
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:I mean nothing.
Speaker:It sucks.
Speaker:That doesn't work.
Speaker:So what we have to do is talk about culture and we have to talk about
Speaker:employer brand's connection to it.
Speaker:And we're not going to use Fluffy bunny terms.
Speaker:We're gonna get straight at how employer branding actually is
Speaker:a strategic driver of culture.
Speaker:I love putting that word in there.
Speaker:The strategic driver.
Speaker:That's a great term to connect these dots to make it feel more like, uh, stuff
Speaker:that matters and not just nice stuff that some other team does when they're
Speaker:bored and have nothing else to do, which is sadly how most companies do it.
Speaker:So today we're gonna talk about employer branding as.
Speaker:A strategic driver of your culture, then make it back.
Speaker:I've already listened to this episode and I'm gonna tell you, Brian is salty when
Speaker:it comes to talking about the importance of culture as a driver of company success.
Speaker:I can't tell if that's a warning or an invitation.
Speaker:Either way, it's the people NBA brought to you by the muse.
Speaker:Let's see who's called into the voicemail.
Speaker:You've reached the people NBA.
Speaker:We're out shopping for our new global headquarters, so go
Speaker:ahead and talk after the beep.
Speaker:Hey, Brian and James, Michael Clara here.
Speaker:I'm wondering how we can get leadership to invest more in building
Speaker:company culture, especially as a driver of the employer brand.
Speaker:Thanks.
Speaker:Alright, so today we're talking about branding and culture.
Speaker:These are not the same things.
Speaker:So step one, they are not the same things.
Speaker:Your employer brand is not your culture.
Speaker:Your culture is not your employer brand.
Speaker:It's not how that works.
Speaker:But we're gonna dive way deeper.
Speaker:Brian's put together really nice little document here, uh, to really help you
Speaker:unlock these ideas, to help you connect the employer brand and the culture side
Speaker:to show how it matters, to show how it works, and also the stuff you need to
Speaker:do to make those connections possible.
Speaker:So you're gonna go.
Speaker:Once you're done hearing us talk about it, you're gonna go to people nba.com.
Speaker:That's people nba.com to download the thing.
Speaker:It is brought to you this week by the Muse.
Speaker:So thank you, muse, for sponsoring this week's episode, talking about
Speaker:culture and employer branding.
Speaker:So Brian?
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Ah, let's just jump right into it.
Speaker:Let's talk about this document.
Speaker:You know, I'm gonna throw you a curve ball.
Speaker:This is not the question I said I'd start with, but that's okay.
Speaker:I think you, I think you can dance.
Speaker:I think you can play.
Speaker:Ah, damnit how are you defining culture?
Speaker:Let's just get everybody on the same page.
Speaker:What, how, how do you think of culture?
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You have said throw, throw me a curve boss.
Speaker:There's multiple ways to answer this, but, but actually it's fine.
Speaker:I think, I think, uh, I always try and I always try to find
Speaker:something in the simplest terms.
Speaker:And I think, uh, if we think about it as predictable behaviors, I
Speaker:think that's a really good starting point that we can all agree on.
Speaker:And you can add bits and you can change the language and all the rest of it.
Speaker:But ultimately for me, what it boils down to is.
Speaker:Predictable behaviors.
Speaker:Yeah, and I love the word behaviors.
Speaker:I think anybody who doesn't say the word behaviors, when they're
Speaker:talking about culture has no clue what they're talking about.
Speaker:I'm just gonna put that right out there.
Speaker:Right now.
Speaker:It is the stuff that people do, the stuff you can point to.
Speaker:It's not the air, it's not the atmosphere, it's not the vibe.
Speaker:It's what.
Speaker:Do people do.
Speaker:So thank you for starting us off and even and, and embracing the curve ball here.
Speaker:'cause without that, you know, we were just wandering off in lots of different
Speaker:areas, so it is predictable behaviors.
Speaker:So let's get into it then.
Speaker:How would you explain to someone like, oh, I don't know, a skeptical c sweeter.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Do we know any of those?
Speaker:Do we, have you had, has anyone those, anybody?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:How do you explain how this is not just, you know, bs.
Speaker:How does the, how do you really connect those dots?
Speaker:How do you show that?
Speaker:With the employer brand and in organizational culture
Speaker:are deeply intertwined.
Speaker:Not the same, but are connected to each other so they can work with each other.
Speaker:So I think to answer that question, I've probably gotta sort of take
Speaker:a little bit of a step back.
Speaker:And I've also gotta caveat it with, um, let's do it.
Speaker:There might, there might be some stuff that you don't agree with here, James,
Speaker:and there's definitely gonna be some stuff that, that not all of our audience
Speaker:agrees with, but bring it on because I've spent a lot of time thinking about
Speaker:this and a lot of times stress testing it and arguing with, you know, the,
Speaker:the very leaders you just talked about.
Speaker:I think the first thing is you gotta be willing to reframe and
Speaker:rethink what employer brands.
Speaker:Is in terms of the hierarchy of, of business strategy.
Speaker:Um, and if we just lose the term, the word employer for a second, and
Speaker:we just talk about brand strategy as an organiza, when you look at
Speaker:an organizational structure and in terms of strategy and the priorities
Speaker:of brand, uh, where does it sit?
Speaker:You're, are you asking me or do you have a good answer?
Speaker:'cause I suspect our answers are gonna be sort of similar here.
Speaker:Well, like, I, I am throwing it to you obviously, I think I've
Speaker:got a, a good answer for it.
Speaker:But where, where do you think it sits in the order of magnitude here?
Speaker:Branding as an idea should be way up there.
Speaker:It really should be something C-Suite connected.
Speaker:The thing is that for me and all my experience is that we end
Speaker:up saying that's our platonic ideal of where we would want it.
Speaker:It should be dictating the overall business strategy.
Speaker:Who are we serving?
Speaker:How are we serving them?
Speaker:What do they want for us?
Speaker:How are we different?
Speaker:All those fundamental questions of what is a brand that should live at the
Speaker:company, leadership, executive level, the day to day, the reality though.
Speaker:Way, way lower.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Now, you know, the reality is a lot of organizations don't see
Speaker:them as a Nike or as a Starbucks, or as an Amazon, or as an Apple.
Speaker:Um, and they, they operate a lot more tactically.
Speaker:However, when it comes to consumer brand or their customer facing brand, it is.
Speaker:Protected and held in high regard.
Speaker:You know, you look at the budget your marketing department typically has,
Speaker:um, it's, you know, over here from an employer brand and talent acquisition
Speaker:perspective, you know, it, it pales into insignificance, doesn't it?
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:But, um, there's, there's one thing that got me started here, um, and
Speaker:I've got to give it a shout up.
Speaker:There was an article in Harvard Business Review, I think about
Speaker:12 months trying to down business strategy to its most simplest terms.
Speaker:Customer happiness and team happiness and the metrics for each
Speaker:are really interesting because you look at customer happiness.
Speaker:Um, it's measured by willingness to pay, like how much can you
Speaker:charge for your product or service based on the value of your brand.
Speaker:Right, and that's conventionally how you generate more value in an organization.
Speaker:It's the reason Himes can charge $23,000 for a bag, whereas the same
Speaker:leather can be stitched into a different bag over here, and you can get what,
Speaker:30, 40 bucks for it if you lucky.
Speaker:It's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's crazy.
Speaker:On the other end of the scale, which is becoming a hell of a lot more
Speaker:prevalent in this day and age now, is employer brand team happiness
Speaker:measured by willingness to serve.
Speaker:Hmm, okay.
Speaker:It's exactly the same.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:On the, on the other side.
Speaker:Because you're, 'cause because as an employee you're paying with
Speaker:your time and your attention and your focus and your presence.
Speaker:It's the same willingness to pay.
Speaker:How much are you willing to pay attention to this stuff?
Speaker:But you know, you know, you're just flipping the script around.
Speaker:Exactly how, what is my willingness to serve this organization, to serve
Speaker:our customers, to serve my manager, to serve the leadership, to serve
Speaker:the purpose of the organization.
Speaker:Because if I feel good and there's a certain culture that is a great match
Speaker:for me, I might sacrifice some salary.
Speaker:I. Or some career opportunity.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:For how it feels and the sense of purpose, impact, and belonging, so and so forth.
Speaker:So, so anyway, I say all this to just rebalance where employer brands should
Speaker:sit in the order of, um, hierarchy from a, a business strategy perspective.
Speaker:Because if we can agree that it's right at the tippy top next to consumer
Speaker:and um, and customer brand, then actually we can, now I can ask you
Speaker:to reframe how we look at employer brand and employer brand strategy.
Speaker:What if it was the blueprint that actually determined the culture that you
Speaker:need to drive the organization forward?
Speaker:And it's a tangible blueprint that can give you predictable
Speaker:outcomes from your talents.
Speaker:Because here's the thing, CEOs care about people, but they value mm-hmm.
Speaker:The output of talent.
Speaker:Not talent, the output of talent, the capability of the organization.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So if we think, um, culture is predictable behavior, um, the Strat,
Speaker:the strategic, uh, objective of culture is capability, which might include, uh.
Speaker:Technology, like AI or you know, any other bits of technology in
Speaker:your organization, uh, resources, the environment, and your talent.
Speaker:Now the fact is if they don't add up to capability to drive the organization
Speaker:forward, then yeah, you're trouble.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So I think there's a conventional thought that culture, um, if you
Speaker:want to improve or focus or refine or hone your culture, you need to
Speaker:put more in your leadership budget.
Speaker:Mm. 'cause you know, like how many times have you seen it?
Speaker:Like culture is defined by leaders.
Speaker:Shadow of leader.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, um, that's not scalable and it's not practical.
Speaker:Think of how many global brands where there's hundreds of thousands
Speaker:of employees who've never met the CEO, would pass them in the street,
Speaker:wouldn't recognize it Exactly.
Speaker:We need a tangible blueprint.
Speaker:A playbook, something that at scale we can create consistency, cohesion, and
Speaker:galvanize people around the same campfire.
Speaker:For me, that's employer brand strategy if it's defined, um, and prioritized
Speaker:right at the top of a business strategy.
Speaker:So if we can accept those principles and we can reframe how we look
Speaker:at employer brand strategy one, you and I have just achieved
Speaker:something we've set out to achieve.
Speaker:We've, we've got, um, employer brand strategy at the, at the top table.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:And now there's a reason for leadership to buy into this as well because Yeah.
Speaker:If organizations can understand the capability they, they require
Speaker:from the culture, you can reverse engineer what the culture needs to be.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I'm gonna push back on that for one sec because I think
Speaker:that's you, you phrased that.
Speaker:With an if, and that is a big if.
Speaker:That is a massive if, because I know plenty of companies who the
Speaker:leadership doesn't understand what culture is, doesn't understand that
Speaker:making choices, strategic choices and what your culture should be actually
Speaker:determines, you know, is this matching our overall business strategy?
Speaker:Are we aligning how we wanna do things with what we wanna do?
Speaker:Yes, Goldman Sachs is all cutthroat.
Speaker:Work as hard as you possibly can, burn yourself out because that is the strategy.
Speaker:That's the culture that serves a strategy.
Speaker:Would that same strategy or culture work at a World Wildlife
Speaker:Federation or Red Cross?
Speaker:Probably not.
Speaker:Different strategy, therefore different culture.
Speaker:It has to align.
Speaker:I don't think many business leaders have had that conversation
Speaker:or that thought process.
Speaker:They simply say, in order to achieve these goals, we need to make this strategy.
Speaker:Let's go and they don't connect the dots.
Speaker:And then here you have ostensibly the person who is owning the people.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:The CHRO.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And that's pretty classic.
Speaker:It's not even a CPO in this case.
Speaker:It's A-C-H-R-O.
Speaker:CHROs are not there to optimize performance.
Speaker:They're there to be the traffic cop.
Speaker:They're there to kind of.
Speaker:Limit risk.
Speaker:They're there to establish processes and policies to make sure nobody breaks
Speaker:the laws and puts anybody in jeopardy.
Speaker:That's not the same as designing something that's designing a safe car,
Speaker:not a performance, you know, sports car.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Very different models.
Speaker:It really is.
Speaker:And how many organizations, global organizations with hundreds of
Speaker:thousands of people who work for them, where they would talk about
Speaker:their culture, stood on top of values.
Speaker:And the values are based on the heritage of the founder 200 years ago.
Speaker:You know, and, and actually.
Speaker:If you look at it objectively, are they fit for purpose?
Speaker:Does it turn into the capability required to move the organization forward?
Speaker:So actually what we should be doing is park the idea of culture for a second.
Speaker:Focus on the capability required.
Speaker:Now that might be.
Speaker:We need resilience, we need, uh, innovation.
Speaker:These are the things that are gonna win in our space.
Speaker:This makes us competitive.
Speaker:Then we can start to design the optimum culture to produce those capabilities.
Speaker:Now we're talking business strategy.
Speaker:This makes sense now, you know?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:It's aligned to an objective which moves the share price.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Which gets the CEO more money, you know, which, um.
Speaker:Tick.
Speaker:I hear they like that sort of thing.
Speaker:I hear that too.
Speaker:You know?
Speaker:Um, but not many organizations are thinking like this.
Speaker:And I think now, um, 2025 we're at turning point where finally
Speaker:the fact that people are the only competitive advantage left in business.
Speaker:I believe that's been the case for many, many, many years.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:But now it's been revealed and everybody can see it's in plain
Speaker:sight because technology is a utility like gas and electric and water.
Speaker:Like you can't.
Speaker:You can't build a business on, we've got better tech.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, it's not the tools, it's how you use the tools.
Speaker:And that means you can get a hundred people with incredible
Speaker:skills in two organizations.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Give me, give me a conducive culture all day long.
Speaker:I'd much rather have lesser skilled people in an environment where they are
Speaker:galvanized together, they're aligned.
Speaker:They find purpose, impact, and belonging.
Speaker:They've got psychological safety.
Speaker:They're motivated and driven in the same direction all day long.
Speaker:Yeah, I think.
Speaker:So much of the stuff we're dealing with and wrestling with here is
Speaker:the, is the, the outcome of, let's call it 150 years of I'm the boss.
Speaker:I said, so.
Speaker:Mm. And that doesn't really work because ultimately to your point, and I, and
Speaker:I wanna also kinda highlight this idea that we're a people centric organization
Speaker:or a people focused organization that is so freaking fluffy Bunny and or
Speaker:at least it is used so often in a fluffy bunny terms, like, Hey, you
Speaker:we're a people focused organization, so we're gonna give you this.
Speaker:Perk.
Speaker:Hey, we're gonna buy you a lunch.
Speaker:You're like.
Speaker:Good for you.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:That's not what it's about.
Speaker:It's about if Steve Jobs had not hired Johnny Ives, would there be
Speaker:an iPhone without Steve picking the person designing the culture?
Speaker:Could you have that outcome?
Speaker:And that ultimately is what we really should be meaning.
Speaker:And I know you and I agree on here, that is what it means to have
Speaker:a. People focused organization.
Speaker:We understand that people drive the culture.
Speaker:They're the ones choosing the technology.
Speaker:They're the ones building the technology.
Speaker:They're the ones instituting the processes.
Speaker:They're the ones doing all the work, making all the choices at
Speaker:every single stage of the game.
Speaker:Yeah, but we just go, oh, well, they would do that.
Speaker:Normally it's like, well, no.
Speaker:If there was a different culture in place.
Speaker:They wouldn't, they wouldn't do it as fast.
Speaker:They wouldn't do it as seamlessly.
Speaker:People wouldn't adopt to new changes as quickly.
Speaker:You would have a very wonky, wonky, cumbersome, pre gerner, IBM,
Speaker:then a lean, mean agile, making adjustments as the world changes.
Speaker:Hey, we collaborate, Hey, this is where we don't collaborate.
Speaker:We make these decisions.
Speaker:That is what a people focused organization because it means
Speaker:we know where we're going.
Speaker:We know our people are the re are the way which we get there.
Speaker:How do we want them to interact and work together?
Speaker:What are the behaviors so that we get there?
Speaker:That's what it's really all about.
Speaker:You are right.
Speaker:And you know, the, the thing below behaviors is mindset.
Speaker:You know, everyone needs to be on the same page.
Speaker:Everybody needs to be thinking and, you know, singing the same tune.
Speaker:So what's interesting about this, and if we can all agree with what we've
Speaker:said so far, employer brand can be the tangible blueprint to design all
Speaker:of this, lay it all out, make sense of it, you know, so it fits together.
Speaker:And it can be reversed engineer.
Speaker:Like, what does success look like?
Speaker:But then let me ask you this.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So, um, if we know the tangible capabilities required, uh, we, we
Speaker:know the, the environment that we want to, we need to create that,
Speaker:that conducive environment that will foster and nurture that culture.
Speaker:Now we know what to go to market with.
Speaker:The story we need to tell what type of employer we need to be known for.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:How are we described around the dinner table when somebody's
Speaker:deciding to apply for that role?
Speaker:Um, you know, because to your point, you think of Goldman Sachs or you think of any
Speaker:sort of consultancy or Amazon or whatever.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:It is a melting pot, a boiler room of stress, pressure, you
Speaker:know, you need resilience, determination, all of that stuff.
Speaker:You wanna be known for that.
Speaker:You know if you can, if you can thrive in that environment, here's
Speaker:what you're gonna get out of it.
Speaker:Now, usually that is a career-minded, ambitious person who wants to
Speaker:earn, wants to get promoted, wants to be the best version
Speaker:themselves, and all that good stuff.
Speaker:They're willing to sacrifice and commit to a culture where they're gonna get pushed
Speaker:to be the best version of themselves because they want that specific outcome.
Speaker:They want that goal.
Speaker:They have the same aligned goal.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:We just didn't talk about skills for the last three or four, five minutes, did we?
Speaker:Nope.
Speaker:There's people out there that do not have the resilience, determination, commitments
Speaker:are not motivated and driven by the same things, but they have the same skills.
Speaker:They're not gonna cope or thrive in that organization.
Speaker:So the reputation as an employee needs to be more tangible and specific to tell the
Speaker:story of what to expect on the inside, and be really clear with why it's worth it.
Speaker:You know, be super clear because.
Speaker:That particular brand of challenge is not right for everybody, but mm-hmm.
Speaker:If you are confident enough to put it out there, you're gonna repel more
Speaker:people and you compel, and I know I'm buoyant to death with these words
Speaker:that I've said for many, many years, but I really do passionately believe
Speaker:it's important, um, to be able to.
Speaker:Have a tangible plan from the reputation in the marketplace, from
Speaker:your reputation internally as well.
Speaker:So it's not just leadership upholding the standards, it's your peers holding
Speaker:you to account, holding you to a certain set of expectations as well.
Speaker:'cause that's what culture is, you know, it's, um, predictable
Speaker:behaviors, usually, usually policed, managed and maintained by everyone.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:You know,
Speaker:um, people like us do things like this that is the reinforcer of the culture.
Speaker:There you go.
Speaker:And that, that means everyone's got the same mindset.
Speaker:They're not just mechanically doing the thing that they've been told to do when
Speaker:they're being watched by the manager.
Speaker:And so, yeah.
Speaker:So the point here without sort of explaining employer brand strategy
Speaker:from from top to bottom is.
Speaker:Look at where we've just got to in the last 10 minutes of conversation
Speaker:from a tangible, predictable, outcomes focused, uh, business strategy.
Speaker:When we elevate employer brand to where it needs to be the brand level, think
Speaker:about the share price and the value we can create on an enterprise level
Speaker:if we increase willingness to serve.
Speaker:And by the way, all the cost savings of the efficiencies of having everybody
Speaker:aligned, streamlined, not having 20, 30, 50% of people join and leave within
Speaker:the first a hundred days because, hey, this is not what I was expecting.
Speaker:This wasn't the deal I was promised.
Speaker:You know, um, you know, I think we are in a capability economy.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:And getting the best talent that is conducive to the culture you have.
Speaker:For me, that's the name of the game.
Speaker:That's what it's all about.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:Culture isn't fluffy.
Speaker:It's not ephemeral.
Speaker:Um, it's a very tangible, intentional strategy that can be shaped, molded, and
Speaker:honed to what you need it to achieve.
Speaker:Personally, I prefer a culture in which we share successes and wins,
Speaker:which means you should subscribe to the people NBA and tell your friends,
Speaker:people like us do things like that.
Speaker:Yeah, so I fall back to my own models of mission, experience, and reward that
Speaker:that is the three things that candidates wanna know about when they're joining.
Speaker:And I think culture tends to live in the experience stuff, but I
Speaker:think what you've done is kind of.
Speaker:Open the door a bit to say, look, sometimes our culture is mission focused.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:The culture of Red Cross is very much about we save lives before anything else.
Speaker:That's really what our job is.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:It's not about internal politics.
Speaker:It's not about making the most money.
Speaker:It's about saving lives.
Speaker:It's about doing this good that we've all agreed to, and that is the, that is
Speaker:the defining driver of their culture.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:At the same time, you're glad everybody's class at Goldman Sachs making money.
Speaker:Defines the culture.
Speaker:The reward is why people are there and they're not here for, you know,
Speaker:easy work days and comfortable chairs and perks for lunch.
Speaker:They're there to make the cash and get the heck out of there.
Speaker:And because the reward is so high, they are willing to forego the niceties or
Speaker:the, the pleasantries or the, you know, anything positive in the other buckets.
Speaker:Culture drives all those things.
Speaker:Culture is connected to all those things.
Speaker:The problem is, is when we squeeze culture down to, aren't we sweet, aren't we nice?
Speaker:Rah, rah, rah.
Speaker:Here's the pom-poms.
Speaker:It turns a true driver of what the company is about, what they're there
Speaker:for, how they do things, into a slogan, into a poster, into a hashtag.
Speaker:That means nothing.
Speaker:My favorite example that is the opposite of that is Facebook.
Speaker:That idea of move fast and break things.
Speaker:I don't, I still don't believe they ever published that widely.
Speaker:It was just so true of who they were and how people interacted with
Speaker:each other, that it became the, the, the shorthand for how we are.
Speaker:This is, this is who we are, this people like us do things
Speaker:like this, we do this stuff.
Speaker:And the clarity around which that was, was a promise to.
Speaker:Incoming employees, Hey, we move fast, we break things.
Speaker:It's how we do things.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:Don't, don't cry over s spillt milk.
Speaker:And you can kind of open it up, peel like an onion, all what that simple idea means.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:It was also an expression to investors.
Speaker:Hey, we're not here to squeeze every dollar outta the process.
Speaker:We're here to tip over the apple cart to see where new
Speaker:in, new, new opportunities lie.
Speaker:We're here to change things and that is the reason.
Speaker:Let me re-say that one more time.
Speaker:The reason people invested, that is the reason they bought the stock.
Speaker:That is the reason their stock traded such a high valuation relative to
Speaker:other competitors in the space.
Speaker:That is what they're about.
Speaker:Their culture defined clearly where every single person in the
Speaker:room was aligned to that mindset, aligned to those expectations.
Speaker:It understood that people like us do things like this that had a
Speaker:clear connection to what they were trying to do, which was disrupt
Speaker:the ad and social media space.
Speaker:It is not a poster, it is not a hashtag.
Speaker:It is deeply meaningful.
Speaker:'cause if you have people running in multiple different directions,
Speaker:good luck getting anywhere.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:You know, and what we're talking about here is clarity.
Speaker:Clarity of setting expectations, and from that comes confidence.
Speaker:And from that comes alignment and efficiency.
Speaker:And Yeah.
Speaker:You know, imagine
Speaker:the recruiting process where everybody knew before they applied, before
Speaker:they clicked the dang button, that they knew what they were getting into
Speaker:'cause they saw the videos and they had friends and they saw the experience.
Speaker:They had all these different touch points that all aligned to this one
Speaker:clear idea that we are this, and the way people like us do things like this.
Speaker:There's no equivocation.
Speaker:Doesn't that inherently shorten the interview process?
Speaker:Doesn't that inherently push away all the people who don't want that?
Speaker:And winnow your pile down to the people who absolutely are like,
Speaker:that's what I've been looking for for my entire professional career.
Speaker:Gimme, gimme, gimme, gimme.
Speaker:Doesn't that change the fundamentals of recruiting?
Speaker:And if you answer no, you're a lying to me, sir.
Speaker:So here's the thing.
Speaker:That opportunity is available to every organization under the stone
Speaker:and has been for many, many years.
Speaker:So that's not new and it's, it's a real shame, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The challenge is in most organizations, and there's only 61% of global brands
Speaker:who have any semblance of an employee brand strategy at this very moment in
Speaker:2025, only 37% of small business have anything to do with employer brand.
Speaker:I'm gonna pause you right there with a new data point that is personal to me.
Speaker:That happened to me last week.
Speaker:I was at an event in Chicago, not naming names.
Speaker:Hey everybody who was there?
Speaker:So glad to be there.
Speaker:Um, it was 40 TA leaders.
Speaker:I. In Chicago, big companies, small companies across the board, and I simply
Speaker:asked, Hey, who here has a formal employer brand or EVP three hands were raised.
Speaker:Yeah, there you go.
Speaker:Three out of 40.
Speaker:And then I said, okay, okay, okay.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:Maybe you didn't spend the money on the agency stuff.
Speaker:I get that.
Speaker:How many of you have an informal brand?
Speaker:You all know what you're offering your people.
Speaker:I don't think 20 raised their hand.
Speaker:So when you tell me that 37% of companies and even the small companies have
Speaker:employer brand, I don't know where those companies are 'cause I haven't met them.
Speaker:For the most part, employer brand still feels like aliens and future
Speaker:technology that one day will get to, but it is not today and that kills me.
Speaker:So there you go.
Speaker:I mean, clearly, um.
Speaker:Of the 37% are in Chicago or that that room Ah, wow.
Speaker:Opportunity for some people who might work, an employer brand.
Speaker:That's a separate conversation.
Speaker:Well, absolutely.
Speaker:Um, but not all strategies created equally either.
Speaker:You know, I, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying that they're good,
Speaker:you know, but there's mm-hmm.
Speaker:A huge open goal is the 0.2 thirds of the, of the world's SME population is
Speaker:not even thinking about this, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But the fact is, even in the global organizations that you and I have
Speaker:worked with, or you know, we could name or a part of our computer and
Speaker:all the rest of it, the fact is.
Speaker:The fact that they've got an employer brand is usually the
Speaker:initiative of a lone wolf.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Somebody is a maverick outside of, you know, whatever.
Speaker:And it's the last crazy,
Speaker:last sane man and or a woman in a crazy universe.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Everything and all the opportunity we've just talked about for the
Speaker:last 15, 20 minutes is only possible if it's driven from leadership.
Speaker:And given that we've just agreed that there's only two ways
Speaker:to increase the share price.
Speaker:Willingness to pay.
Speaker:Willingness to serve.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Why is this being neglected?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Why is this being neglected?
Speaker:Because this needs to be owned by, um, C-Suite and, you know, I, I saw a
Speaker:great, uh, definition of the primary purpose of A CEO the other day.
Speaker:It was, um, to tell great stories and to find the best talent possible.
Speaker:Yeah, that's the job of A CEO.
Speaker:Tell great stories.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Set.
Speaker:Set.
Speaker:Find
Speaker:the best seller.
Speaker:Set.
Speaker:Set a. Set a direction.
Speaker:Find the people who get you there.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:What else is there?
Speaker:What else is there?
Speaker:But let's just think about this for a second.
Speaker:Tell great stories about the company or find great people.
Speaker:It's that not employer brand strategy.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:Sounds familiar.
Speaker:So, you know.
Speaker:I really think now that organizations, smart organizations who are looking for
Speaker:competitive advantage are gonna reverse engineer the situation such that, okay, if
Speaker:I need to, if I need the best talent, and then I need the best environments and the
Speaker:best resources, and I need the optimum.
Speaker:Ingredient mix of these three things to get more share price
Speaker:and more, um, shareholder value.
Speaker:This has to be a priority.
Speaker:This has to be a priority, you know, so I, I don't think it's far away.
Speaker:I really do think we're gonna see a, see change of we employee brand strategy sits.
Speaker:Here, let me, let me push back.
Speaker:I agree with everything a thousand percent, and I absolutely think
Speaker:that employer brands should be connected to share price and
Speaker:shareholder value and business growth and all those wonderful things.
Speaker:I'm just gonna look around at all the other TA and recruiting pod employer brand
Speaker:podcasts who use the phrase shareholder value and share value and business growth.
Speaker:And I don't see any, it's the problem isn't just that
Speaker:the C-suite doesn't get it.
Speaker:The problem is us.
Speaker:The problem is employer brands still for the most part, and I
Speaker:say it with love 'cause I number myself among you still thinks it's
Speaker:pretty pictures and platitudes.
Speaker:It's still putting things on Instagram, it's still tweaking the job postings
Speaker:and not thinking truly strategically.
Speaker:And it is a knife in the heart of what I think about this industry and
Speaker:the, you know, the industry I'm giving my entire professional career to.
Speaker:It's kind of insane.
Speaker:I, I do agree.
Speaker:Um.
Speaker:And I think part of the reason is the remit and the parameters
Speaker:that they've, I'm gonna say
Speaker:percent,
Speaker:I'm gonna say we've been allowed to operate within.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:You
Speaker:know, and largely the industry's done a brilliant job of telling a great story of
Speaker:the reality of today in an organization.
Speaker:But leaders don't spend any time in the present day, in the present tense.
Speaker:They spend.
Speaker:At least they looking forward, sense of the time in the future.
Speaker:And if you look at the employer brand, that tells a perfectly
Speaker:great story of what it feels like to be in your organization today.
Speaker:It's already outdated from a leadership perspective because
Speaker:absolutely
Speaker:they're trying to take the organization somewhere else.
Speaker:So I guess the other reframing here, and it's, you know, I'm gonna stick with
Speaker:like the culture train sort of analogy.
Speaker:If, if culture is the train, employer brand strategy is the track and it's
Speaker:taken us from where we are today to where the leadership wants us to go tomorrow.
Speaker:And it paints a great picture and it tells a great story of.
Speaker:How we're gonna get there, what it's gonna feel like to be part of it, so you
Speaker:can make decisions as to whether this is a place you can thrive and find a
Speaker:meaningful contribution or not, you know?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And
Speaker:yeah, because it's a two-sided game.
Speaker:It's what the company offers, it's what the person offers, and the recruiting and
Speaker:hiring is all about not finding the best.
Speaker:There is no such thing, but finding the best.
Speaker:Matches where what we offer is what you want and vice versa.
Speaker:That is what great hiring is all about.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So it's the intersection between what people want and what the
Speaker:organization needs and Exactly, and I'll tell you this as well.
Speaker:You can't start with what people want doesn't work.
Speaker:You have to start with what the organization needs, and then you
Speaker:need to tell compelling stories to find people who see what they want.
Speaker:In that proposition because yeah, if you design a proposition around
Speaker:what you know people want, yeah.
Speaker:By default you just designed something that just isn't fit for purpose.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And, and that's the whole work from home conversation where everybody's like,
Speaker:oh, everybody wants to work from home.
Speaker:So I guess we should talk about it.
Speaker:Like, well, do you offer it?
Speaker:No, but we should talk about it like we do.
Speaker:That's, that's wrong.
Speaker:But I wanna push back because I think there's an interesting
Speaker:tension here that we started this conversation in this idea that I.
Speaker:Oh shit.
Speaker:I lost my train of thought.
Speaker:Nick.
Speaker:Cut this.
Speaker:Just remind me what you just said.
Speaker:Um, oh, employment structure needs to be designed for, for the organization first.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So I wanna, I want kind of push back on this idea that started from the
Speaker:beginning where we talked about.
Speaker:A business works because you, you, it, it, it's an a customer's willingness to pay.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:And conversely, employer brand is understanding and kind of leveraging
Speaker:an employee's willingness to serve.
Speaker:Correct.
Speaker:You can start with what the business wants, but you have to tie that
Speaker:with what are you willing to give in order to get that service.
Speaker:So it is a two-way street.
Speaker:These two things are happening at the simultaneously.
Speaker:You can't just say, this is what we want.
Speaker:That's called something else.
Speaker:We tried to outlaw in this country about 150 years ago, but.
Speaker:No, I disagree.
Speaker:That's not enough.
Speaker:It's not enough to say we want this, and though, to be fair, if I look at every job
Speaker:posting, all it is, this is what we want.
Speaker:This is what you'll have.
Speaker:This is we are dictating these terms.
Speaker:We are this aggressive leader.
Speaker:We are in charge, which of course is bullshit.
Speaker:It's gotta be about how do you balance the two?
Speaker:Look, if you tell me the job only pays me $20 an hour, that
Speaker:better be a really easy job.
Speaker:Maybe I'll consider it, maybe it's gonna align with my, but if you
Speaker:just say you're gonna do these stuff and you're not connecting it
Speaker:to the what you're returning on it.
Speaker:It's, it's half a conversation at best.
Speaker:So, so I, I agree with the most part of what you've just said.
Speaker:However, there's a key distinction.
Speaker:I didn't say what the business wants.
Speaker:I said what the business needs.
Speaker:Ooh.
Speaker:And what the business needs is adaptability, resilience,
Speaker:innovation, creativity, productivity.
Speaker:That's what the business needs.
Speaker:Mm-hmm.
Speaker:Now, in order to get that, in order to get that, they need to put a
Speaker:value on what they're willing to pay.
Speaker:And not just, not just salary and all the rest of it.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:But all of it.
Speaker:But the proposition to get that capability that we've talked about.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So that might mean, look, if we wanna be the most innovative company in the world.
Speaker:We're gonna have to pay the most.
Speaker:And that's a decision, the organization, because the most innovative
Speaker:talent, this is what they want.
Speaker:And that's a really good example of, yeah, what talent wants
Speaker:meeting what the business needs.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Now sometimes it doesn't quite meet.
Speaker:And that's the power of your employer brand being more compelling than the next.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, 'cause you can, you, you and I know you can put the same
Speaker:benefits, salary, career prospects on the table at one organization
Speaker:and it's me, but put it, yeah.
Speaker:On the table in another organization because their brand sexier and they've got
Speaker:a better reputation and it seems cooler and they've got a better, um, they've got
Speaker:better ethics and they do more for the environment and all that could, you know,
Speaker:and you join that organization, right?
Speaker:So it's the full thing.
Speaker:So therein lies the opportunity, but do not mistake, it's got to start with
Speaker:what the business needs otherwise.
Speaker:It doesn't matter what people want, if they can't bring the
Speaker:solution and the capabilities to, to serve the organization.
Speaker:There isn't a business strategy on Earth that's taken seriously unless it serves
Speaker:the business first, and that's that we can argue all day long, but ultimately
Speaker:it's not gonna be taken seriously by business leaders or invested in.
Speaker:If it doesn't serve the business first, it's simple as that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:This, that is our mic drop.
Speaker:There's, I have other questions.
Speaker:I could have brought the table.
Speaker:I think that packages it up perfectly.
Speaker:This idea of how you're connecting, how employer brand is leveraged to
Speaker:take what the culture is, to turn it into a narrative that people are
Speaker:gonna go, oh, I see what that is.
Speaker:I believe what that is.
Speaker:There's credibility, there's value that you're leveraging.
Speaker:Value beyond the salary, but in terms of status and in terms of, uh, mission
Speaker:and in terms of all these other things to say, this is the total package of
Speaker:what we're offering you in return from what we're expecting from you that.
Speaker:Seems so stupidly obvious, and yet it also feels sort of like science fiction.
Speaker:Some days it feels so far away that it, it, it, it's crazy.
Speaker:So if you wanna dive more into this, go check out on people
Speaker:mba.com and download the document.
Speaker:It is free.
Speaker:It's brought to you by the Muse.
Speaker:So thank you Muse for sponsoring.
Speaker:Uh.
Speaker:This has maybe been for my money, our densest conversation.
Speaker:And I mean that in a good way.
Speaker:Like a lot of ideas kind of jammed together.
Speaker:So if this was useful, if this was valuable, you are
Speaker:legally obligated to say it.
Speaker:So you gotta tell us.
Speaker:You gotta, I mean, I'm sorry, it's the law.
Speaker:I don't write the law.
Speaker:I'm not in charge here.
Speaker:I just, I just wrong.
Speaker:I'm just a guy with a podcast and a microphone.
Speaker:If this was useful, if this was interesting, if you have
Speaker:challenges, if you disagree.
Speaker:You gotta say, so you gotta find us on LinkedIn.
Speaker:You gotta fi post on, on, you know, iPod or no, whatever you get your
Speaker:ipo, your, your podcast, wherever.
Speaker:Go make comments, go make a ruckus.
Speaker:So Brian, a killer conversation.
Speaker:Thanks so much for bringing this topic up.
Speaker:Uh, this has been a blast.
Speaker:Pleasure.
Speaker:See you next week folks.
Speaker:See you next week.
Speaker:At least they got through an entire episode about culture
Speaker:without making a joke about yogurt.
Speaker:So that's something Anyway, you should tell a friend about the podcast
Speaker:or point them to people mba.com.
Speaker:And thanks to the muse for sponsoring this episode.
Speaker:Next week, the boys argue over whether this new generation is
Speaker:called Gen Z or Gen Z, tules.
